There's a traditional Zen saying: "Before enlightenment, chop wood, carry water. After enlightenment, chop wood, carry water."
I disagree strongly. I think enlightenment should be a means, not an end. I would consider it a hollow victory to achieve a form of enlightenment which left me internally better off but had no external impact at all on the world. Beliefs matter primarily because they affect behavior. I advocate becoming more aware of the way you are and could be, and the way the world is and could be, not merely out of a love of knowledge but in order to improve yourself and the world.
I disagree strongly. I think enlightenment should be a means, not an end. I would consider it a hollow victory to achieve a form of enlightenment which left me internally better off but had no external impact at all on the world. Beliefs matter primarily because they affect behavior. I advocate becoming more aware of the way you are and could be, and the way the world is and could be, not merely out of a love of knowledge but in order to improve yourself and the world.
posted by howtolive.org at
10:10 AM
6 Comments:
enjoy this web site and agree more than I disagree but I must say if one understands the zen saying to mean that if one chops wood before enlightenment his mind is not on the job or his mind is not in the present moment but on the failures of the past or fear of the future which I think is a stste of hell on earth. I hope this makes some sence. Keep up the good work. donmoon
By
Denny Moran, at 10:30 AM
you may disagree strongly... but I don't understand what is in the zen saying (or maxim?) that you disagree with. You go on saying that "enlightenment" should bring out a change in character to potentials, which I do believe will indeed happen with the interior development (or should happen (walking the talk)). What is missed in the entire zen maxim is all the stuff that brings you toward a more enlightened state. A wise student of zen would understand more. I'm not saying that you are wise but I will give some explanation to try and help.
What zen does is it brings awareness and intense focus into all accounts of one's existence. Once you have come to terms with a number of things dealing with identity, karma, existence and so on and have tamed the wandering mind you can go on with your existence with more focus to what matters with directed focused intent.
You still will have to chop wood (or go to work, whatever that may be) and carry water (or deal with all sorts of relationships or anything else for that matter), but once "elightened", the actions will be directed with onepointedness of mind and lovingkindness.
And yes, all of the baggage of past and future will be absent. (thanks denny)
This is what, to me, this zen saying is intended to mean.
By
Shawn, at 2:07 AM
...secondly a person who is only immersed in nirvana and never does anything about it may be called a buddah but those who have had this and emerged back into the world of samsara (even though really there is no difference ;) ) to better the world is a boddhisattva, a much nobler being bent on helping other realize the same [nondual awareness].
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Shawn, at 2:15 AM
eh, all zen talk aside, i take it to mean that enlightenment, good for yourself, can proceed but nothing will affect the way society is and what it demands for you to live in it. No matter how enlightened you become, you also have to come to terms with the bare necessities of survival. Yes, it's good to live in a way that benefits others and be kind and etc.., but when it comes down to it, you can't change the way people live and the ways in which you have to conform to that to etch out a living. I'm not saying you can't disappear into the woods and live off the land, but the way life is structured (yes, everyone's life is to some extent by societal demands, and one's want to exist in society) doesn't allow grand maneuvers like making the world a better place, unless it is desired collectively at the moment. that is the way good things progress on a larger scale (sans force or dicatorship), collective acceptance. and for one person to be able to "make the world a better place" via their enlightenment is absurd. It just doesn't happen, and if it does, there is more to it than the person's desire for change and their own enlightenment, it is societal coincidence.
also, once you realize the way you want to live, you still have to do the same basic things to get by. there is no getting around it. you must work, you must eat, you must sleep...before and after enlightenment you must still take the same actions because enlightenment is mental. peace of mind has worth, but it is not physically manifested.
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Anonymous, at 11:53 PM
The truth is: to chop wood is to chop wood, and to carry water is to carry water, regardless of enlightenment, or whatever you might call it.
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Joshua, at 1:43 AM
"Before enlightenment, chop wood, carry water. After enlightenment, turn on furnace, turn on faucet. After second enligtenment, tell robot to turn on furnace and pour a glass of water, with ice, lemon, and lime, please." --Jay S.
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Anonymous, at 9:59 PM
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